[This transcript was generated from YouTube’s auto-captions, not a verified human/AI-diarized transcript. Timestamps and wording may contain errors, and speaker labels below are Claude’s best-effort inference from context, not confirmed against audio. Please review before publishing.]

[Music]

Eric: You know, you’re taught growing up that you should stay at a job as long as possible, but the reality is you should chase the opportunity, not chase titles or chase salaries, so you learn a lot. There’s all these different games you can play in life, but mental models, that’s a game too.

Host: Hey everyone, today we interview Eric Siu. He is the CEO of digital marketing agency Single Grain. Single Grain has worked with Fortune 500 companies such as Amazon, Uber and Salesforce to help them acquire more customers. He also hosts two podcasts: Marketing School with Neil Patel, and Growth Everywhere, an entrepreneurial podcast where he dissects growth levers that help businesses scale.

[Music]

We have the technology. Real Life Superpowers.

Host: So Eric, welcome to Real Life Superpowers.

Eric: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Host: So where are you at these days?

Eric: I’m in downtown Los Angeles, where it was kind of a war zone a couple weeks ago, but yeah, you know, just surviving in the US, I guess.

Host: How’s that going?

Eric: It’s going well. You know, the one thing, I think we talked about being honest pre-show: a lot of digital entrepreneurs really aren’t saying much right now, but a lot of the friends that I know that are founders, they’re doing well. But you don’t want to say in this climate that you’re doing well. So I guess things are going well, but I’m not openly talking about it.

Host: Yeah, I think it’s actually good. Like, Ronen and I discussed this a lot, that it’s sort of not legit to talk about the good things, and between us we’re trying to shift the conversation and see how positivity, and talking about what’s good and not just what’s bad, is actually a win-win for everybody.

Eric: Yeah, no, you need the positivity for sure. Otherwise it’s hard to wake up in the morning, right?

Host: Yeah. And also, if it’s going well, then it’s legit. If you’re able to talk about it, and, you know, like the cliche, let your star shine, you’re enabling other people to let their stars shine.

Eric: For sure.

Host: So it’s going well. So tell us more about that.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, where would you like me to start? I think, you know, the stuff that we do. I have two podcasts; those are going well, those are continuing to grow. We collect advertising revenue from it, we have event spin-offs from it, we have other stuff that we’re doing, but it’s all centered around the audience. So I think the one practical bit of advice, or story, I can share with everyone is: if you build the audience first, everything else kind of falls into place. So between the podcasts, blog, videos, we have the audiences, and then it’s like, okay, how do we continue to serve the audiences? And they also give us other opportunities. So in that sense, if you start building the audience right now, you become insulated from any bad things that might happen in the future. And bad things will continue to happen, but you just want to make sure that you don’t have all your eggs in one basket.

Host: So that’s a great tip. But do you feel that there is something where, in the beginning, people want to be part of it and help it grow, but when it grows, the responsibility sort of changes, and you’re not doing the same thing because you’re scared people will perceive it differently?

Eric: Yeah, so I think there’s a couple of things in that, right? I think nobody knows what it’s going to grow into. Facebook’s a good example of that. Right now you can basically use it to manipulate people, right? Because people are very easily convinced to do things. To me, it’s marketing 101. I’m not political, but you look at why did Trump win the presidency? It’s a lot of marketing, it’s a lot of branding that went into it, and that’s why he won, right? He had a better message than the other person. I’m not saying I like him or I dislike him. So there’s that. And then Facebook didn’t realize… I think what you’re referring to is unintended consequences, right? You build this; what happens after, what happens after that, what happens after that? And I don’t think enough people think about that. So I think the practical lesson here is, I love reading about mental models. There’s a great blog called Farnam Street, and it’s just tools you plug into your head, so you know how to defend against it. And you also know that if you build something, if you build an audience, you actually have greater responsibilities, and you have to live up to those responsibilities, because now you’re influencing a ton of people, right? I just think some people abdicate when those responsibilities come, and some people will step up to the challenge. But it gets scary when people are just like, “I’m going to use influence for whatever I want to do.”

Host: Yeah, because you do have a responsibility, right? So let’s step back. Have you always been an entrepreneur? I know now you have a really successful agency. What were you doing before that?

Eric: So I have a book coming out next year called Leveling Up, and the way I look at life, it’s also a mental model to me: I think life is a game, because I used to do esports before it became a thing. Everything that influenced me… the only thing I was successful at growing up was playing games, but I was never given credit for that, right? It was always looked down upon. So it’s really important to me, because there’s three billion gamers in the world, to get that message across. But before, I was basically lost. In high school, I almost didn’t graduate because I didn’t go to this one required class. I almost got kicked out of college as well, because I almost never went to class. School was not my thing. And then I ended up getting this dead-end job, coming out of a good college too. I went to UC San Diego, so it was a decent public school in the US. So here’s the thing: I come out, I have no direction, and I’m doing data entry. That’s the best job I can get coming out of the financial crisis. And I just lost my way. And then my friend was like, “Oh, you should check out this digital marketing thing,” and that’s when I started learning. And I always told myself, when I played games growing up, “I just need to find something that feels like I’m playing a game.” I didn’t know that it would be digital marketing, and eventually it would become entrepreneurship, and now every day I’m waking up and it feels exactly like I’m playing a game. Only one life, though; you only get one chance, so you better make the most of it.

Host: Yeah. And so that friend gave you a tip. Did you just leave your job? How did you make this a reality?

Eric: So that’s a game within a game right there, because I was working a data entry job and they didn’t care what time I came in. So I would come into work from 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m., and I got two internet marketing internships, and once I got home I would study until 12 a.m. I was younger at the time, 21, 22 years old; all I had was time. So I would do that, and eventually I got my first internet marketing job, about a month later. And then within that year I changed jobs five times, right? And so that’s another lesson: you’re taught growing up that you should stay at a job as long as possible, but the reality is you should chase the opportunity, not chase titles or chase salaries, so you learn a lot. There’s all these different games you can play in life, but mental models, that’s a game too.

Host: But were you scared? Because changing jobs at a time… I mean, now I think it’s very common. I think the average lifespan of a job is like two years, because people are looking to self-improve.

Eric: Is it like that in Israel too? Two years?

Host: Yeah, yeah, I mean, that’s what I’ve read at least. I’m not sure if it’s everywhere like that, but I think that the culture, when you’re talking about the digital space or the high-tech space, is less definitive than the offline world. With the amount of scale and changes and adaptation, people are willing to change more. The culture isn’t a very big gap, in my opinion. We had this entrepreneur on our podcast called [name uncertain from the audio]; he has a venture called Jolt. It’s basically a new world of learning, an alternative to college, but for actually building skills that are relevant to today’s world. And I think he even has a tech talk about it, that people are coming in to work for chapters, and a chapter is an average of two years, and the idea in each chapter is to see how you build and write the next one.

Eric: I love that. I mean, yeah, whatever you want to call it: your life is a game, your life is a story, but it’s one building block at a time. So to answer your question, maybe I was naive, but it was intuitive to me to be like, “I think I’m going to be stuck here, I should move on.” A lot of times, yes, people talk about data, but I think your gut feeling is pretty important, because more often I think you’ll find that your gut feeling, at least when it comes to your own career, is probably more correct.

Host: And were you scared? Did you have any pressure from your environment around you?

Eric: My parents still thought I was lost. But that’s the other thing: what your parents or your friends are seeing on the outside is a lagging indicator, because they don’t know what you’re doing day to day. But if you feel like you’re on the right track, you’re taking the right habits every single day… absolutely not. At that age, 21, 22, I was already starting to listen to audiobooks every day. So I think as long as you feel like you’re moving in the right direction and you’re not just wasting time, you’re okay. So I was not scared, because I felt like I was doing the right thing.

Host: Maybe also the books that you were listening to and the content that you were consuming provided an alternative to the voices in your head. Not in the psycho way, but like online mentors, in a sense. Maybe it’s mindset.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a really good way to put it, because you read a book and it’s 10 to 15. That’s why with every podcast I listen to, if it sounds like it’s a good book, I’m just going to buy it, which is why my library’s built up now. But it’s cheating to me, because it’s so cheap. You get someone’s life experience. And then once you start to become more successful, you hire a mentor, you hire a coach. Worth its weight in gold.

Host: Yeah? You think that even in this day and age, where you can basically get those mentors for fifteen dollars, and the most successful people in the world, you would still get a real-life mentor?

Eric: Yeah, I’ll give you examples. The types of mentors I look for are people that have been where I’m trying to go. So my coach right now, and I’ll be very transparent with you, I pay him $5,500 a month, which is expensive, right? But he founded a venture firm called Flatiron, Flatiron Ventures I believe, with another popular VC named Fred Wilson. So he’s played the game of business and investing, but then he realized, and he wrote this in his book, Reboot, I think he tried to commit suicide, because he’s like, “This is not what life is supposed to be like,” right? And he went on this journey, and now he’s known as the CEO whisperer, where he makes CEOs cry. He’s coached the CEOs of Etsy, SoundCloud, all these amazing companies. And so I was like, okay, if this guy can help me uncover things about myself that are deep, that I really haven’t explored, then it’s worth it. And the very first intro call I had with him, where he was kind of evaluating me, because he said, “I’m not going to take every client,” he actually made me cry, and I haven’t done that in a very long time. So if someone can make you feel a different way, I think it’s worth exploring coaching.

Host: How do you find your coach? Where do you look for it?

Eric: Yeah, so I’ve had a couple, and I’ve had a couple of mentors too. I think the coach is more by referral. One guy was speaking at a conference, and I just reached out to him. With this guy, a lot of CEOs have talked about him, and people were like, “He’s not available, it’s impossible for you to get him.” So that was more of a challenge for me: okay, here’s another game. And I’ll be honest with you how I got this guy: I got one of his students onto my podcast and I asked for an introduction.

Host: Is this the guy that also mentored Alex Blumberg on StartUp, Gimlet?

Eric: Yes.

Host: Oh wow, he’s good.

Eric: Jerry Colonna.

Host: Yeah, cool. I heard that episode, and I was thinking, wow, that is quite the process.

Eric: He cried hardcore on that, I don’t know if you listened.

Host: His coaching session was live, yeah. Amazing. So are you getting really deep insights on yourself now?

Eric: Here’s the thing. I think a lot of us don’t realize that the operating system we had growing up, zero to 18 in the United States, or maybe zero to 21 or whatever, it’s your childhood, and that’s such a huge foundation. It’s how you’re programmed, and there’s a lot of things to unwire. And to be frank with you, I’ve done pre-work with him; we actually haven’t started our first session until, I think, eight days from now. But we had our first touch, and he’s like, “There’s a lot for you to think about from your childhood.” So I read his book first, and the ways that I behave, you know, I’m very competitive, I also like teaching a lot, that all came from my childhood. Because I have Asian parents, and I think this is the same with Israeli parents: you get the beat-down the whole time, right? You’re never good enough, at least for me. Even if you do well, it’s still not good enough, and it’s just constant pressure on you to perform, and there’s a chip on your shoulder. So there’s a lot of things I need to unwind, I’ll just put it that way.

Host: What I like about it is, I’m thinking about gamification. Oh, I love that, the gamification of the challenge. Two questions: in your organization, do you try to interplay that in any way? And second question, what kind of games? I know you’re a Fortnite player, but are you a StarCraft 2 player as well, or strategy, or what are you?

Eric: Yeah, so that’s funny. When I eat lunch, I watch StarCraft 2 replays. Sometimes I’m like, “I should be watching CEO interviews,” but I don’t want to be productive the whole time, so I’ll just sit and watch StarCraft 2 replays from top players. My struggle right now is, when I would play Fortnite or whatever, it’s like, business is so much more fun. So the whole concept of the book is: yes, play games, get really good, those skills will carry over. But if you want to play the ultimate game, and you want to make an impact on people, employing people, make an impact on the world, business is the best game, right? So again, I’m rewired now, but I do enjoy watching top players play. So that’s what I do. And I might play in the World Series of Poker, because it’s online this year, and it’s happening right now. That was the first part of your question. What’s the second part?

Host: How do you interpret the gamification? Because you’re wired into that. How do the people…

Eric: If you’d asked me this five, six years ago, I would have been like, okay, it’s all about work at the company, it’s all about working really hard, and I just constantly work, right? But the most important thing for any organization is culture, and culture is the game itself. It’s an operating system. People say it’s platitudes at this point, but culture is not ping-pong tables, it’s not kombucha on tap or whatever. Culture is your operating system; it’s how people behave, and you have to build that very intentionally. And so I obsess over that now. And you’ll find that the best CEOs in the world, the one thing they all obsess over is culture. Even, I’m looking at, I’m stuck on this Zoom screen right now, we’re on Zoom, and Eric Yuan, same deal. You look at his Glassdoor: very focused on culture. So that’s one part that to me is kind of like playing a game.

Host: So do you think culture can be something that people can sort of lean into and absorb, or do they have to come with predetermined values of their own? How much do you think that’s flexible?

Eric: I think a big part of it is the process that you have. But the first part of culture, and I’m sure a lot of your listeners know this already: when I first joined this group called Entrepreneurs’ Organization, I was only 27 years old, and people would be like, “Eric, have you thought about your core values? Have you thought about this?” And I’m just like, “Oh, I’ve read about all this before.” And then you don’t realize how important that is until you actually have the company running and you go beyond 10 people or so, and then you realize it’s everything. You hire and you fire based on core values. But even before that, it’s the pre-work. When people think about recruiting, it’s just like, “Oh, we need to hire these people,” but you don’t think about how do they fit into the core values? Do we have ideal outcomes we’re looking for from this person that we’re hiring? Do we have ideal competencies that we’re looking for? So we have a very methodical process that isn’t going to be perfect, but it’s a lot better than having no process, right? So each process is a thing that you add to the operating system, and then the machine, the game, you get to level up more, because your machine is stronger than other people’s.

Host: That’s really fascinating to me, and I’m trying to ground it to an example that I’m sort of struggling with these days. One that comes to mind is in an organization, with respect to customer support and having empathy. I’m struggling with understanding if that’s something that good people can learn, to sort of grow.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, empathy… I think you can have it as a core value, and in some cases you kind of expect these from people that you’re hiring. Integrity, right? Integrity is kind of hard to have as a core value; you might as well just be like, “We expect integrity from people. You’re going to do the right thing and you’re not going to be shady.” Empathy, I think it could work as a core value, and you just need to have systems in place to make that happen. I don’t have empathy as a core value, but for us, I’ll give an example: we have growth as a core value. So what we have in the interview process, and this is a really important question we ask, because you can ask so many questions, but it’s like, “Hey, John, what are you really interested in? What are you passionate about?” “I’m really passionate about rock climbing.” “Okay, you’re going to have five minutes: teach me everything you know about rock climbing in five minutes.” Right? And you can see if they really light up, and if they’re actually teaching you something, it’s like, “Oh, I actually learned from this guy, and I think I would admire this guy.” Then you’ve got something on the growth side. So I don’t know what it is for empathy. Maybe they have to give you a very specific example, but yeah.

Host: I see. Okay, interesting. I’ve got to think about that. Yeah, but he thinks it’s a cool game, so we can… [unclear in the captions]

Host: So basically you just decided that you’re going to try, and you started learning into the night because you had a lot of time. And then when did you leave your day job? Was it a leap of faith, or did you acquire enough money or experience? What made you brave enough to do it?

Eric: I got fired.

Host: Okay.

Eric: Yeah. So I was working at this company, it was a funny video website, I think it’s still called Break.com, and I was an SEO strategist, and I was getting bored. I was getting paid a great salary, I think I was 25 years old or so. And growing up, it’s like, “Oh yeah, you’ve got to make six figures,” and so I hit six figures and I thought life was done. That’s the thing: I was programmed to think that once you hit six figures you’re set, you should start a family. But I was like, “Oh, so this is it?” And so what happened was, I started an agency, a consulting thing on the side, and I put the logo of the company that I worked for on it. There were all these logos on my website, because you’ve got to add credibility, right? And what happened was, a potential prospect reached out to the front desk, and then that went all the way up to the [unclear in the captions], and they found out I was starting a company and using their name. Yeah, well, I used their name as a badge. And so they printed it out and they brought me in, and I was like, “Oh yeah,” and that’s when I knew I got fired. But the moment they fired me, I actually didn’t feel fear, I felt relief. I was like, “Oh, I’m free.” So I went home and I was motivated. I just immediately went to work, I started reaching out to a bunch of people, and things started to move there. But I was still kind of scared about consulting, and then eventually I got hired to be a VP of marketing at a tech startup. I learned a lot. Then I came into this company, the ad agency I own, Single Grain, and I wasn’t a founder, but I was a fifth partner, to help save the business. And I can talk about that story, but now I’m the only owner in that company.

Host: Wow. So tell us about that story.

Eric: Yeah. By the way, you should have my podcast partner Neil on.

Host: Yeah, yeah, I consume his content. I think he’s fantastic.

Eric: Yeah, I’ll talk to him later; he’s down to do it. So he was actually a partner in the business. I like to say it was one yellow guy, me, and four brown guys; it was four Indians. It was Neil, and I talk to all of them still: Neil, Hiten Shah, Sujan Patel, and another guy, AJ. So what happened was, it was a failing SEO company. This is when the Google Panda and Google Penguin updates hit. These are the algorithm updates, and they basically invalidated our SEO business. So they’re like, “Okay, Eric, you helped save this other tech company, come help save this agency.” And it wasn’t interesting to me at the time. I looked at it and I was like, “This is a house of cards. This business is going to fall apart.”

Host: So you were a VP of marketing at a company that was doing SEO, and you were able to save that, and you understood that you could probably help Single Grain, who were suffering from the same Google updates and needed help?

Eric: Yeah. That company was an online education company called Treehouse, and at the time when I joined, we actually only had five months of cash left in the bank. So I took the entire marketing budget, I bet the entire company on YouTube ads, and it worked. So we raised our next round and they grew. We had a great product, we had a great team; what we didn’t have was great marketing. And so Neil was like, “Hey, you helped save this company, why don’t you save this agency?”

Host: How did you know Neil?

Eric: So with Neil, I used to read his blog when I was learning internet marketing, and when I didn’t know stuff, I would email him, and he would reply. So then I just kept emailing him, and then he got annoyed, and finally he was just like, “Let’s just get on the phone.” Usually if you get annoyed you should just ignore me, but he got on the phone, and then we met at Taco Bell in LA.

Host: Okay. And then you had that conversation, and he understood that you were able to save that company, and he basically identified the potential here, so he invited you to join them?

Eric: Yeah, so he’s like, “Look, there’s an opportunity here.” And I was like, “Oh, I don’t know, it’s an agency.” I’m not that interested in the agency, because I thought I was so great, because I worked in SaaS and tech, right? And I’m like, “I think the business is probably going to fall apart because of the algorithm updates,” I already saw it coming. But then I reframed my mindset, and I was like, “Wait, but if I make it work, then the upside is really high, even if I have partners in it.” So I joined the company, and a year goes by, actually maybe a couple months, and it gets worse. Sujan decides he wants out; all of them decide that they want out. Neil was like, “You should get out too, the company’s not worth anything.” And so now I’m like, “Oh, I get the whole thing now.” My upside is really high, because if I fail, I still learn a lot, but if I make it work, I can just take all that cash and redeploy it into all the other things, which I’m doing now. So I bought Neil’s shares for one dollar for 10% of the company, another dollar went to Hiten for 10%, and then the rest was seller-financed through Sujan and AJ. And so I paid zero dollars out of pocket, or two dollars out of pocket, to acquire the business. So that’s what happened.

Host: Wow. And I guess, I mean, you have a podcast with Neil, so I’m guessing you’re still on good terms?

Eric: I’m on good terms with all of them. And Neil, I think the other thing is, he saw Single Grain work and he invited me to join his agency to take it over, but I didn’t want to just run an agency for the rest of my life. And so now he has Neil Patel Digital and all these other agencies around the world, and he’s made it work. So he’s come back into the agency world too.

Host: Awesome. And then, like you’re saying, basically Single Grain is leverage for you for investing in other things that you’re doing. So tell us about that.

Eric: I think maybe a practical lesson before I go into it: if you look at Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger from Berkshire Hathaway, the reason they do well is because they constantly acquire other businesses, or they reinvest, which is why taxes are not such a big deal to them, because they just keep redeploying. And so that’s another thing: growing up, intuitively I was like, “Wait, if I keep realizing the gains, I’m going to have to pay a lot of taxes.” I think paying taxes is great, but if you’re an entrepreneur, you probably know how to better deploy that capital to make a bigger impact, I believe. And if you have nothing else to do with the capital, realize the gains and pay the government, definitely, right? So that’s always been my mindset: I think I should just keep growing the company. What I’m doing now is, we have a software business called ClickFlow, which is content marketing SEO software. And then with Neil, with Marketing School, we have an events business tied to it, and a virtual event now tied to it, we have advertising that’s tied to it too, and then we’re planning to start an education thing, because it’s Marketing School. And a lot of this requires capital, in terms of investing into great people, because great people are very expensive, and also into marketing. And on the Single Grain side right now, we have an educational, what’s called a coaching thing, for people that want to start and build an agency, because we’ve done it, and it’s not just like one of those internet marketing things, right? So we’re reinvesting into that, and we’re spending a good amount of cash on ads per month. So all of it goes back into: how do we grow bigger? That’s the key takeaway.

Host: And it’s amazing that you get along with everybody. That’s not trivial, partnering and then getting on. So kudos on that side; that says something about how you deal with things. The good vibes are really important, and the question is how, because at the end of the day people are people, right? So you bought them out, and at the end of the day they still like you and everything’s good. So how did that ambience work? How do you achieve that game?

Eric: Yeah, thank you for that question. I think you realize that it’s not worth burning any bridges. Even though internally I’m a very competitive person, so in the moment maybe I’ll be like, “Screw this guy,” whatever. But at the end of the day… maybe I didn’t talk to Sujan, the original founder of Single Grain, for a year or two, right? But we reconnected again, we did a video collaboration together, we did a podcast together, and you realize that life is short. And to me, I’m going to be very honest, I’m going to stop giving you platitudes: to me it’s also part of a game, to get that relationship back and to continue to be helpful to them. It just seems like a natural thing to do. And even right now, I hear from people, “Oh yeah, that CEO says a lot about you, he says all these things about you,” and I’m just like, okay. I don’t confront them. I hear all these bad things that are said about me from this one person, and then that one person actually comes back to me a couple months later and starts a conversation, and I don’t even bring it up. Because to me, if you can control how you react, you can call it stoicism, but to me it’s an exercise in self-control that allows you to move past and operate at a higher level than these people.

Host: Is that the only thing, that you did not respond? Because why are we assuming that that person even knows that you know he spoke badly about you?

Eric: In some cases, this guy, he’ll message me and he’ll need something, right? And I’ll actually help him with it, because I just need to make an introduction, so I won’t bring it up. But in other cases, there’s a very prominent guy, actually he’s been on your podcast. Okay, so I’ll tell the story. I’m not going to say who it is, but a couple years ago, this is probably five years ago, he went to Neil, and he’s like, “Why are you doing a podcast with Eric? Eric is small time, Eric is this, Eric is that,” right? All these things. And so then this guy gets on a podcast with me later, because I’m helping promote his thing, and at the very end I actually confront him. It’s like, “Hey, I’m happy to help you with this podcast, but I just want to clear something up.” So in some cases I will directly confront them, but now it’s water under the bridge. So I still talk to these people. People are like, “You should just cut ties with these people,” but I don’t do that. I don’t know why.

Host: Yeah, well, I can guess why. It’s probably like in Zelda, you have the types of weapons that you don’t want to throw away until you know they’re useless, right? [unclear in the captions] Don’t close the door; maybe I’ll use it, maybe not. That’s a business game classic.

Eric: That’s the other thing. I think that’s a great analogy. I think it’s also like, they’re throwing an attack at you and you’re parrying the attack, right? So it’s kind of fun to do that. It’s weird to say that, but it is fun to do that. It’s like you’re playing these mind games to make yourself stronger.

Host: No, you win at the end of the day. When he called you and he needed something from you, at the end of the day there’s a scoreboard, and the scoreboard is, “You know what? I could have done this and this, but at the end of the day, I won. He called me first to get that.” And by the way, he didn’t feel bad about that, so now we’re even. It’s like a new game.

Eric: I love that. Yeah, the slate is wiped clean.

Host: Right. I’ve actually heard of a mind game recently. Have you guys heard of the Benjamin Franklin effect?

Eric: No.

Host: Okay, cool. So it’s basically just another way to, in a sense, manipulate people who you’re not on good terms with. Basically, Benjamin Franklin had this enemy, I think it was a senator or whatever, and this was somebody who was really a hater. And what he did is he asked him for a favor: he asked him to lend a book to him. And that’s all he did. And the dude was confused, but he loaned him the book, and then after two weeks he returned the book, and that’s it. And there’s an entire psychological philosophy behind this, because basically now the hater did something for him, so his mind has a cognitive dissonance, because he can’t explain to himself: if I’m the type of person who lends Benjamin Franklin a book, I must in some sense like him. And afterwards the entire relationship took a pivot, and the hater became almost on his side. And if you read about this effect, it has to be a favor that’s meaningful in a sense. Today, asking someone to send you a WhatsApp link to something that’s insignificant, the guy will just do it and move forward. It’s not a big deal, he only lent him a book, but it’s still an action that required some giving out of him, and it changed the entire premise of their relationship.

Eric: I love that. Yeah, that’s awesome.

Host: You know, you have a competitive sense to you, which I really like. I think that most people don’t even know that you’re competitive, because you feel very friendly, but you’re still competitive, which is a great attribute, by the way. I have that attribute as well. And now I’m interested in something that I’m trying to understand myself, as a person who gamifies the business world: how do you gamify COVID-19 with business, digital or non-digital? How do you see that game? What’s the win here?

Eric: Here’s how I see COVID. I think it’s an opportunity for businesses to accelerate. And this is something a lot of people aren’t going to say, but you’ll see this from a lot of companies: this is the time that they can trim the fat. They probably had too many people, and there’s people that just haven’t been performing that they’ve been wanting to cut. There’s also opportunities in terms of, now you can actually go out there and get amazing talent that unfortunately has been laid off, but you can pick up that talent. And I’m like, okay, what else? I’ll give an example: right now, for people to get out of their long-term office leases, they can do that. They can switch to full remote too. A lot of things that they’ve been wanting to do, that have been in the back of their mind, I’m speaking for myself actually, I can just move it forward now, and there’s no complaints, right? I think Kevin O’Leary said this; he calls it the cloak of COVID, where you can make these changes very quickly and nobody’s going to complain, because you can just say, “Hey, I’m making these changes because of COVID, and we’ve got to do this to protect ourselves for the long term.” And in a sense, you’re not really manipulating people; you are doing the things to survive. And I think during this period, yes, it’s survive and thrive, but I’m also like, it’s time to invest. There’s opportunities, while making sure that you have a nest egg.

Host: Yeah, okay, I get that totally. But now, timeline-wise, what do you think? That’s if in three months it’s done, right? So what happens if in a year it’s not done?

Eric: Yeah, so here’s what I would say. The entrepreneurs I know that have diversified enough, let’s say they built an audience, I can see them right now, their demeanor is very calm. And so for me, yes, I talk fast, I might be a little intense, but I do feel like I’m good. Because if you build the audience, and you have podcast ad revenue here, there’s event revenue over here, there’s ad agency revenue over here, there’s edu revenue over here, there’s all these different things, it’s really hard to lose everything at once. So anyone that’s listening to this: if you’re building a business, at the same time start to think about building the audience. Because when I was trying to save Single Grain, when we dropped all the way down to one employee and my accounting firm told me to shut it down, I kept going with that. But at the same time, I started my first podcast, Leveling Up, and I was only getting nine downloads after the first year, and after the second year I was only getting 30 downloads. And I kept going, but it takes two to three years to start to build that audience, to start to see results. If you start to do it now, you build the leverage, and then you can start to sprout up all these other income opportunities. And then when something bad like this happens, you will feel protected. And because you feel protected, you get to take shots that other people wouldn’t get to take. Because I know people right now that have lost 80 to 90 percent of their business, and that sucks, I get it, but at the same time, you should have covered your ass. That’s the hard truth.

Host: And that’s a fantastic lesson, because now it’s an opportunity to reevaluate and grow and make your business right, and diversify.

Eric: Yeah. And even if you had all your eggs in one basket and lost 80 to 90 percent, there are so many opportunities right now. But like we talked about earlier when we started this podcast, you’ve got to look at things from a positive mindset. If you wake up with that positive mindset and you keep working… It sounds like rah-rah stuff. I think for me, being Asian, I’m like, “Oh, I don’t need that,” but it’s important.

Host: So Eric, what’s your superpower?

Eric: I think my superpower is… you know, my ultimate goal is to level up the world. So I think my superpower is teaching, because I like learning. If I like teaching, learning goes into it, because to be a good teacher you have to learn. So yeah, my ultimate goal is to level up the world and just be the greatest teacher I can be.

Host: Wow, I love it. And your kryptonite?

Eric: Yeah, I think there’s a double-edged sword, because I’m very direct with people, and sometimes when you’re direct it can break people. Some people love taking it. I think Israeli culture is totally okay with it, from the Israeli friends that I have. Asian culture, okay with it. But in other cultures, not so much, and that’s been a challenge for me to adjust. I’ve gotten better at it, but it’s still a challenge.

Host: I know a lot of people that really, really like what you do, and I’m just wondering, if they want to be you, and you want to inspire any entrepreneur to have this kind of journey, not the exact same thing but this type of journey that you’re having, what would be the tip that you’d give yourself when you were starting?

Eric: That’s a great question. So I think if you think about all the other entrepreneur books out there, and I’ve done three or four hundred entrepreneur interviews as well, it’s the same theme over and over. If I boiled it down to one word, it’s persistence. This is weird, I actually haven’t mentioned this on any podcast interview I’ve done, but when I read Think and Grow Rich when I was 20 years old, there’s this thing that I’ve kind of burned into my mind that I repeat every morning: desire, faith, plan, action, consistency. Consistency to me is the most important one, and I just repeat that to myself every day. So I call it DFPAC; it’s easy to remember that way. I’ve never said that before. But I just realized that what you do in a year, it’s really hard to see progress, but when you look at your past decade, it’s like, “Whoa, I’ve done a lot.” So long term, I think you’ve got to be patient. Short term, it’s a big sense of urgency. And I think it’s guaranteed that you’re going to be successful.

Host: Fantastic, love that. That’s cool, man. Thank you so much for this, Eric.

Eric: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Host: And, you know, be safe, optimize, maximize and have fun. Stay healthy.

Eric: Cool. Can I give everyone a link real quick?

Host: Yes, of course.

Eric: So the book I have is coming out next year, in February, but here’s a URL for everyone: levelingup.com/giveaway. I just got the domain, so there’s a giveaway there. It’s going to be an assortment of my favorite books to help people grow. So levelingup.com/giveaway.

Host: Perfect. And maybe we’ll have you on once it’s launched.

Eric: Would appreciate that.

Host: Awesome. Thank you for everything, and stay safe.

Eric: You too. Bye-bye.

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