Noa Eshed 0:25
We’re here with Chen Levanon, co founder and CEO of SimilarTech, and one of the most influential women in Silicon Valley. Chen, hello.

Chen 0:33
Hi.

Noa Eshed 0:33
Welcome.

Chen 0:34
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.

Noa Eshed 0:36
Gladly. So what are you up to these days Chen?

Chen 0:39
Visiting Israel?

Noa Eshed 0:42
This holiday?

Chen 0:43
It’s, I’m trying to do it once a year for a month and a half. So my kids will be not very American.

Noa Eshed 0:50
How’s that going?

Chen 0:52
Um, I think, okay, I think it’s tough for me and my husband, because it’s a month and a half. But we’re doing it for them. So they will know the language, culture.

Ronen 1:01
What’s wrong with the American?

Chen 1:03
Nothing, it just if I want them at the end of the day, you know, to come to the army want to leave here? Maybe we’ll come back? I don’t know. So they need to be not very American.

Noa Eshed 1:15
How long have you been living in the United States?

Chen 1:17
Three years.

Noa Eshed 1:17
Three years? So were kids born there or?

Chen 1:20
No. So I went to school there and then worked in New York, and then came back for seven years, and then come back again, and then went back again. 2015 when they were six, since six months and a year and a half.

Noa Eshed 1:33
Right? Right. And your families are here, in the United States. They are all here.

Chen 1:38
We all here. My brother have just graduated Stanford. And now I’m trying to relocate my other brothers. So who knows? I’m trying to shift them.

Noa Eshed 1:48
So like the family somewhere in the United States and somewhere in Israel or

Chen 1:51
They are all in Israel. Just he went to school and he went to Stanford for a year.

Noa Eshed 1:55
Got it. Okay.

Ronen 1:57
Now your your co founding SimilarTech?

Chen 2:00
Yeah.

Ronen 2:00
And then that’s a relocation that you’re talking about?

Chen 2:03
No. So I moved in, I moved to San Francisco in 2015, together with Clicks Mob. So the company that we founded here in Israel 2012-13. And then few years later, I moved there. So basically, from 2012-13, I used to fly to San Francisco more than twice a month, because all the customers were there. And then eventually, in 2015, I relocated my family, so that I stayed there.

Ronen 2:32
So they put this in order for a second. So like you, like, as I know, you, you’re formally a professional athlete.

Chen 2:41
Yeah.

Ronen 2:41
And then you formerly a professional financial expert. And then afterwards, you were co founder in a few startups that were also sold, and some of them very successful right now. So like that. You’re like, how old? Are you? Sorry for that question, I know you’re not supposed to ask woman that but…

Chen 3:04
It’s fine, it’s okay, we’re in Israel, right? I’m 34, almost 35. Yes, I used to be an athlete. It’s funny, if you tell my husband, he was like, prove it please.

Noa Eshed 3:15
Really? You don’t do any sports these days?

Chen 3:17
No. It’s like I gave up on my slipping and working out with kids, and another one on the way, so you know. Just hopefully soon I’ll go back to that, but

Noa Eshed 3:28
When did you stop?

Chen 3:30
So professionally, I stopped in 2006 When I graduated from Brandeis, and then I started to be an investment banker, Lehman Brothers

Noa Eshed 3:40
And when you say professionally, what do you mean?

Chen 3:42
So I, I got a sport scholarship to Brandeis University. That’s why I went to Boston. And then I ran track their 400 hurdles, and and then when I got accepted to Lehman Brothers, investment banking was, I don’t know if it was my dream, because I didn’t know anything about it. But when you go to like private school, and you study econ, and business, everyone is like, oh, the top of the top is the Wall Street. I didn’t know anything about it, but it’s the top of the, top of the top, I wanna be there. Yeah. So. So that’s what I did. So I did my summer internship at Bear Stearns and then my full time in Lehman Brothers.

Noa Eshed 4:23
Were you happy there?

Chen 4:25
I really liked my summer internship, I hated, I just hated investment banking.

Noa Eshed 4:30
Right.

Ronen 4:31
Why?

Chen 4:31
Well, I think I was, I think 50% because of me 50% because of the society. The 50% because of me, I think I was a rookie, I really just graduated. I didn’t know anything. I was very okay, this is what I was taught and this is what I will do. But it’s very men dominated. I felt as if I’m, I’m like, I don’t even know how to explain but it’s like, I cannot think I cannot think it’s like I was taught to use this PowerPoint and this Excel and think about this merger and this IPO, and this is how it’s getting done.

Noa Eshed 4:48
Right?

Chen 4:50
I didn’t really understand what I’m doing. I was like a monkey.

Ronen 5:13
So why is it, because of male domination? Or it was because you were rookie.

Chen 5:15
No, no, I, it’s because this is the society I think this is, at least this is what it was in 2006-7, I don’t know, it’s, I believe it’s the same thing. Now, you know, you have like three months of training, and they teach you how to use Excel and Word without your mouse to, to spend less time. You’re a monkey.

Chen 5:25
Like your output has to be like a machine.

Chen 5:38
Exactly. And this is the format, and this is the logo, and this is what you do. And it’s an amazing school. Don’t get me wrong, because I believe that…

Noa Eshed 5:45
School efficiency

Chen 5:46
Yes, and school of like orders, and I don’t know, or American, corporate and who is leading and who’s the manager, and how you need to respect them, and so on. And back then I didn’t think that I’m the only woman in the floor besides the secretaries or whatever. But now when I look back, it was men dominated business. It didn’t bother me at that time. I have to say.

Ronen 6:14
That’s really interesting, actually, on a different point, though. So you’re saying kind of like a monkey. On the terms that you’re a robot, you had to do exactly what you’re told. And that bothered you? Right?

Chen 6:25
Yes, because I finished it, and I didn’t really understand, I didn’t feel that I understood it.

Ronen 6:32
Right? You know, there’s people who don’t care about that, like they can’t, you know, they come to work, and you know,

Ronen 6:38
And they make tons of money.

Ronen 6:40
And they want something to find. You know, they have no problem with that box.

Chen 6:44
I admire them. I admire them.

Noa Eshed 6:48
Do you though? I don’t.

Chen 6:48
I don’t know, I don’t know, like, yes, good for them, I can’t do that. For me. I wasn’t happy. I worked 100 and 120 hours a week, I had my my husband, my boyfriend at that time, he didn’t really see me. Like I used to come back at 3:40am Take a shower, going back to the AP Physics exam, but basically prepared me to motherhood. Because I still think it’s harder to be an investment banker than a mother. Like for me, it wasn’t a big deal. Now I guess a lot of moms are going to hate me and this is not the point. But for me like to be an investment banker, I really didn’t sleep. To be a mom I slept every three hours. Right? So for me, it really prepared me to motherhood the first three months?

Chen 6:48
And do you think if you were sort of able to learn the profession more and get good at it, because I think it probably, it seems to me like it bothered you a little that you weren’t the best there.

Chen 7:36
Correct.

Noa Eshed 7:36
That you weren’t some sort of rising star in your landscape. Do you feel like if you were maybe that would enable you to have passion for what you’re doing?

Chen 7:52
I think so.

Noa Eshed 7:53
Yeah, so maybe you were lucky in that respect? Because maybe that saved you?

Chen 7:56
Correct? Because then I would have stayed.

Noa Eshed 7:58
Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.

Chen 7:59
Correct. Yeah, I think you touched the point.

Noa Eshed 8:03
So how did you, how do you escape this?

Chen 8:05
So I finished my two years analyst. And, and obviously, I wanted to do something else.

Noa Eshed 8:12
Does this have to be two years or

Chen 8:13
No, it takes two years and then you can extend it to one another year.

Noa Eshed 8:17
That was the contract?

Chen 8:18
Yes, it’s like two years analyst and then you can extend it to another year analyst. And then there were tons of layoffs, right, because it was before September 2008. So, and I left June, so three months before it went bankrupt. At the end of the day, everything happened for a reason, because they relocated me back to Israel after a year. And I didn’t really want to go back because I wanted to get my MBA there but it was like I was 23 offered me tons of money. And I’m like, of course, and, and like I was lucky because a lot of my foreign friends, they had 30 days to leave the country because when the sponsor for your visa goes bankrupt, you have to leave the country in 30 days. So it’s very, like everything happened for a reason a year before I was relocated, and then I found it. So it, like it was the good ending.

Noa Eshed 9:10
Maybe they went bankrupt because you left?

Chen 9:12
Yeah, and also Bear Stearns, I did the summer internship, they also went bankrupt before, so I don’t know. But after that I really wanted to do, so what was nice with my position, Lehman Brothers, it was an analyst was the entry level but because it was the Israeli team, I wasn’t focused on one industry. I was focused on the Israeli industry. So I could do tech, healthcare, real estate. And it’s amazing because usually in investment banking, you have the tech group, the Real Estate Group, and then you focus on one and there I wasn’t, I like we focused on everything. So it was nice. So I really liked real estate, but income producing real estate, not the commercial. And so…

Noa Eshed 9:52
What did you I like about it?

Chen 9:53
Just because it makes sense. It’s recurring revenue, it’s not you buying, you’re selling, it’s actually you building your model behind it and you actually use your brain. Because it’s very it’s very tricky, right?

Ronen 10:08
What’s tricky about it?

Chen 10:09
It’s tricky because it’s not just financial, it’s legal. It’s sells, you need to know how to sell, you need to manage the management company. In each like in Israel, it’s different in America, it’s different, you need to list the ground, and then you need to deal with the banks. So it’s very, it’s not just pure: Oh, I’ll go and I’ll buy and I’ll go and I’ll sell. So I think like it was a while ago, but this is what I liked about it. So and I focused my so I said, Okay, so the next thing I’ll do, it will be one industry, because I want to know, in what, like, I want to focus. And that’s why I hunt down the CEO.

Noa Eshed 10:50
And then what?

Chen 10:50
So I, I was in, in Holmes Place in Givatayim where all the CEOs and chairmen or whatever, work out at 6am in the morning, and then I knew him, you know, from the newspaper, and I knew that the income producing real estate, they had shopping malls, and it’s a publicly traded company in Israel. But I had some background to deal with shareholders and investors and, and then I asked his personal trainer and my personal trainer to introduce us.

Noa Eshed 11:24
Who is him?

Chen 11:25
Dani Vaaknin, he used to be the CEO of Menufim. And before that, in a Fenix Hahkaot

Ronen 11:32
So you asked a personal trainer to

Chen 11:34
Introduce me to him.

Ronen 11:35
Okay, and that worked out.

Chen 11:37
Yeah, I told him, I just want to introduce myself, let’s have breakfast. And he said, yes.

Noa Eshed 11:41
And knowing you that’s, that’s a theme, you want to meet someone, somebody you’re gonna meet that person.

Chen 11:46
The thing is that, I just don’t understand why to say no. And why to be shy, because it will happen anyway. So if it will not happen like this, I will say, it’s like, I don’t, I don’t say no, it’s a good thing and a bad thing. But I don’t say no.

Noa Eshed 12:02
But tell us a bit more about that. Because a lot of people want to meet people who can help them progress in life. But I think if you just come up to someone and say, let’s have coffee, that’s almost a waste of their time. Like you have to have something to offer them. Otherwise, why would they sit down with you?

Chen 12:19
Because when people ask me to have coffee, I say yes. So I expect everyone else to do it. You know, it’s a stupid thing to say, but that’s the truth. I’ll tell you a funny story. A couple of months ago, I was in in Palo Alto with my lawyer at breakfast, and then Sheldon Adelson just came in. And I told my lawyer, I was like, I know that we have a meeting, but I’m sorry. I’m going to introduce myself. So I just went there and invited me to sit.

Noa Eshed 12:45
Did you play the Jewish card?

Chen 12:47
I played the one that I went to Brandeis. Although it’s very lefty, and he’s not so…you know. But so I just told him, he said, okay, my wife is late, just like have a seat. And we just had a talk. And he was nice, and we talked about my first company and my second then why and then he asked my business card. And and it was nice. I, oh my God

Noa Eshed 13:10
Did you get in touch with him afterwards.

Chen 13:12
No I didn’t. But it wasn’t the point. It was nice to hear his view and the questions that he asked and, and he was so kind, and he didn’t have to do it. But why not to do it? You know,

Noa Eshed 13:24
I think it’s part of your superpower, though, because I think something that’s special about you is that you really don’t take no for an answer, but you charm your way into it.

Chen 13:37
Maybe. I also saw Bruce Jenner, you know, from the Kardashians, that now is Cat, Cathrine, right? I don’t know. So I did my baby morning in Malibu. And he was an athlete right, an Olympian. Like, he’s my hero. He was my hero. I ran after him. And my husband is like filming me. Oh my god, you’re my hero. I ran track in Brandeis. And we, and the paparazzi, like took pictures of us. And people thought I’m crazy. But how cool. Like, it’s amazing, right? Like you’re a kid and you see on TV. And all of a sudden you see your hero, just like why not?

Noa Eshed 14:10
You see your hero. But you also understand that at the end of the day, everyone or everyone is just a person. So if you just approach the right in the right vibe. And you just really believe you’re not gonna hear a no, I believe that something magical almost happens and the person just is almost hypnotized into just rolling with you.

Ronen 14:30
An entrepreneur told me a good sentence. He said everybody has a hero. And the heroes have their heroes.

Chen 14:30
Yes, it’s so true.

Ronen 14:33
So you know, Catherine, is running after you know, whoever he desires to meet.

Chen 14:38
It’s so true…

Ronen 14:44
So you know, you have to be empathetic to the person who’s looking up to you because you have that same person. You know?

Chen 14:50
A couple years ago when I interview someone in San Francisco and she

Noa Eshed 14:54
For a job?

Chen 14:54
Yes. And she came to the end she came to the office and she was like, oh my that you’re so simple. You’re like, what am I supposed to be? And she told me, I don’t know, I heard about it. I’m like, oh my god, this is what people think about me, then this is what I think about other people. So it’s the same thing.

Noa Eshed 15:15
Do feel like maybe sometimes you’re taking the magic out of things. I sometimes personally feel that way that I have such high thoughts of people, and then I meet them. And there’s this childish part of you, that’s a bit disappointed that it is just the person.

Noa Eshed 15:27
Yes. And so what?

Ronen 15:29
Because it’s a build up,

Chen 15:30
Yeah, it’s…

Noa Eshed 15:32
And it’s not true. It’s almost never true.

Ronen 15:34
It’s a build up. It’s like in anything, you know, you can Genghis Khan used to, used to send one messenger to tell everybody about the gruesome deaths, you know, just to get everybody build up before it gets scared. So it’s also in a relationship, you’re going on a date with someone and they tell you some amazing stories.

Chen 15:34
And after a few months…

Ronen 15:43
You know, you get used to everything, you have an office in the ocean, you get used to the ocean right in front of you, right? We’re people, we can get used to anything.

Noa Eshed 15:59
But I sometimes asked myself that maybe I should just leave some stuff detached.

Ronen 16:03
So so a really geeky sentences, either die a hero or see yourself become the villain. So maybe not the villain but when something becomes too realistic, it becomes a little bit boring.

Noa Eshed 16:03
Exactly. That’s that’s exactly it, though. I sometimes ask myself, maybe I should just

Ronen 16:07
But it happens, it will happen. It will happen and it happens and and you just need to stay okay, that’s life

Noa Eshed 16:25
Move on to the next…

Ronen 16:26
When you went to Holmes Place, but something doesn’t work out for you, like you, you knew in Lehman Brothers that you want to real estate. You went to work out in Holmes Place. Do you already know he’s working out there? It was like a stalking thing or

Chen 16:38
No, no, no, I signed for like six months, I saw, like I knew everyone like, they I see, like, Hevrat Hashmal (Israeli Electricity Company) CEO and chairman was there. The SNP CEO was there, like I knew everyone in my I know, like I knew them.

Chen 16:52
Because you’re reading newspapers all the time?

Chen 16:55
Yes. I used to, I used to read, you know, the Globes and TheMarker and I don’t remember. But yeah, we had to when working in investment banking, we had to every morning.

Noa Eshed 17:06
Yeah that’s a game.

Chen 17:07
Yeah, I’m not doing it anymore. But yeah, I used to

Ronen 17:11
So you asked him for a job. And what did he say?

Chen 17:13
No, it wasn’t that simple. I

Noa Eshed 17:16
She asked him for a towel.

Chen 17:17
I asked for breakfast. And then I just introduced myself and I said, I just want to be your personal assistant, but not like in terms of like secretary like personal assistant. And he said, it’s very flattering. But I just started few months ago, I don’t maybe I need it but I don’t know if I need it now but let’s be in touch. So I just put event on my calendar every two weeks. And every two weeks, I sent him a message and kinda every two weeks or three weeks, we had coffee.

Noa Eshed 17:47
That’s amazing.

Chen 17:49
And then I have to say that they barely looked for another job, because I knew that I’m going to work here

Noa Eshed 17:53
You knew it was gonna happen?

Chen 17:54
I knew it was going to happen.

Noa Eshed 17:55
You were then laser focused on that

Chen 17:56
I took newspaper and went to Metzitzim and just read books.

Noa Eshed 18:00
That’s the beach.

Chen 18:01
And even after, yeah, and even after, like a month or two months, I remember my parents telling me, are you sure? I’m gonna get I’m sure don’t worry.

Ronen 18:08
Wait. So I have a question here. This is like super optimistic. You knew. You knew you’re getting this job. Your mind was set on it.

Chen 18:16
Yeah.

Ronen 18:17
Question. If it didn’t happen?

Chen 18:19
No way.

Ronen 18:19
No way?

Noa Eshed 18:20
It’s not an option.

Chen 18:21
It’s not an option.

Ronen 18:22
But if it didn’t happen, what would you like it? How would you act? If it didn’t happen?

Chen 18:26
I don’t know. Because it’s not an option. So I don’t I, I don’t know…

Ronen 18:30
But I’m sure there’s a situation

Ronen 18:31
No I didn’t

Ronen 18:32
You thought anytime in life.

Chen 18:33
Of course, but it didn’t really happen. So I had a lot of different options. But in this case, I didn’t think that it will not happen. So I didn’t even imagine an option

Noa Eshed 18:41
Didn’t you have like some sort of plan B where you knew, because basically, your strategy here was this is probably the best person I can learn what I want to be best at. So I’m going to find a mentor, and I chose him. He’s going to be my mentor. He doesn’t know it yet. But he’s gonna be my mentor. And I’m gonna learn everything I can from this guy. Didn’t you sort of wonder, okay, if he’s not going to be with me here. I can go and learn from the second best.

Chen 19:05
Not in this case, like in other cases that happened in life. Yes. In this case, maybe I don’t remember. It was 2007-8

Ronen 19:15
Did you know?

Chen 19:16
No I really liked him. I think he liked me. I think I he’s exactly what I needed at that time. Because I felt as if I need to know business, and real estate and if it’s real estate, amazing, because this is what I want to do. But I really wanted to see what is like to be CEO. Like that was my passion at that time. I really wanted to see how he goes to a meeting how he signs contracts, how he manages employees, like I really wanted.

Noa Eshed 19:45
But why him?

Chen 19:46
I don’t know,

Noa Eshed 19:46
You don’t, you don’t know?

Chen 19:47
No because with his background, and he’s really nice and he’s really nice and smart. So everyone that you ask around, will say the same is amazing.

Ronen 19:58
Did he teach you the things that you want to know like, because you’re not working in real estate right now,

Chen 20:02
He taught me everything. He kind of taught me everything. He taught me how to be person. And I think that after investment banking, it was one of my, my best lessons. He even say hi to the gardener and even say hi to the doorman. Those things didn’t happen in Pennsylvania, not in New York and not in Israel.

Noa Eshed 20:21
Because that’s your payoff.

Chen 20:23
And we didn’t respect people, period.

Noa Eshed 20:25
Because they need to feel separate from the rest.

Chen 20:27
Maybe. And again it was 2007. I don’t want to judge I don’t know what’s going on, now.

Noa Eshed 20:32
Maybe they now say “Hi” to the gardener.

Chen 20:34
I don’t know. But he just taught me how to be person first of all.

Noa Eshed 20:38
I think came with that before

Ronen 20:41
But she said in Lehman Brothers, there was probably a cockiness, it was so prestige.

Chen 20:45
I think investment banking, not just Lehman Brothers. Investment banking, like the industry,

Ronen 20:49
The industry?

Chen 20:50
Yeah industry. That’s the standard. That’s the industry

Ronen 20:53
The brand it was very powerful and give you a feeling of empowerment,

Chen 20:56
You go think about it, you go to Times Square, you have like, 50, something floor building, you go, you have to wear boys tie girls, you know, you have professional besides Fridays. You go to a meeting, you’re an analyst, you sit there, you don’t sit in the table. They’re very, like strict boundaries, very strict boundaries. And all of a sudden, I learned how to be person again.

Chen 20:56
So he taught you to be a person, what else?

Chen 21:05
How to manage employees without managing employees.

Noa Eshed 21:28
So tell us a little about that?

Chen 21:30
So how to cause employees to work for you without telling you that you want them to do A, B and C?

Ronen 21:39
How?

Noa Eshed 21:39
Yeah

Chen 21:39
I don’t know. Like, I think that’s something.

Noa Eshed 21:42
Come on.

Chen 21:42
No, I think it’s not something that I can say. It’s because A, B and C. It’s because something that I saw. I admired him, I respected him. I didn’t want to fail him. So I worked for him. So that’s the feeling that he let me and his employees. And that’s why they worked for him not because they needed to work for him because they wanted to work for him. So at the end of the day…

Noa Eshed 22:06
Not wanting to let him down?

Chen 22:08
Yes, yes, you’ve work your ass off

Noa Eshed 22:10
And being given the freedom to do your way

Chen 22:13
And you know, one more thing that now I remember. So investment banking, it’s a lot about paying attention to details, which I sucked. But anyway, I learned they cared about, you know, commas and semi commas and capital letter the like, all the small, small.

Noa Eshed 22:27
Grammar check law.

Chen 22:28
But I always knew that I have an associate above me that will correct me. With him, sometimes used to give me like agreements. And I was like, No, I trust you. We’re going to send it, I’m like, Are you now going to go through this? I said no I trust you. So I went again to my table and read it again, because I didn’t want to disappoint on him. So it’s the small things that oh my god, I did exactly the same in ClicksMob, while with my employees, exactly the same. I knew that it’s okay. It’s not going to be perfect, but they’re going to learn. And it’s the small things that he taught me without him knowing that he taught me that, because that’s those are the things that I took from him.

Noa Eshed 23:03
So how long did you work for him?

Chen 23:05
Almost four years, I think three or four years.

Noa Eshed 23:07
And then he just decided to…,

Chen 23:09
No, he left and then I left a year after?

Noa Eshed 23:13
You stayed after?

Chen 23:14
Yeah, I stayed after him because it was new management and from abroad and, and then you know, it’s about time, it’s like, okay, now I’m ready. Now I’m ready. I’m ready. I’m ready. I didn’t know, okay. It’s very tricky to be a CEO PA or to be like, you know, either financial analyst or that you’re doing everything of everything. Now, your next step, it’s kind of hard. It’s tricky. Because you’re not an expert in marketing. You’re not an expert in sales. You’re not a manager. You’re not an accountant. You’re not a lawyer. So it’s tricky. What are you doing next? So it was really tough. It was really tough. I remember sending resumes around and it was tough, because I didn’t know what I’m bizdev um, strategy, like I didn’t know. And then I was approached by four founders eventually. And they told me that

Noa Eshed 24:03
Wait, hang on, what do you mean that you were approached…

Chen 24:06
They got my resume, they say, from all jobs or something like this, like random. And then they told me about their idea about mobile. I didn’t know anything about mobile. And it was it was to take a risk.

Noa Eshed 24:18
And this was ClicksMob, the company which you ended up leaving, and being sold.

Chen 24:23
Yeah. So that’s what I did for four years. But basically…

Ronen 24:26
That’s a weird situation for you. You’re, it’s the only situation you told me untill now that you really didn’t know what you wanted. Like till now you’re, you’re really focused.

Chen 24:36
Yeah correct. I had the same thing two years ago, after we sold ClicksMob for like five months. And…

Ronen 24:42
How did that happen? Like you…

Chen 24:44
Because I reached my goal. It’s like my goal was to be a CEO until I’m 30. Like since I was 21, or something like this. That was my goal because before that I thought to go to Wingate and be a gymnastics instructor or something like this, but I’m from like, 21-23. My goal is like, Okay, I’m going to be, I’m going to be CEO. And I’m 30. I don’t know how I don’t know when, like when I do, but like, I don’t know how I’m going to do it. But this is what I’m going to do. And I did it. And then I didn’t have a new dream.

Noa Eshed 25:16
So what did you do, because that must have been difficult?

Chen 25:19
So it took me five months to understand that I need a new dream. Because once I figured out my new dream, I know how, what, what my next thing will be. I’m not going to share my new dream with you. But I have a new dream.

Noa Eshed 25:34
Now?

Chen 25:35
Yeah, that’s what…

Ronen 25:36
What was your dream then?

Noa Eshed 25:37
Yeah.

Chen 25:38
So my dream then is to become a CEO. (Oh) So I didn’t have, because from 30 to 33, I was a CEO, I reached my dream.

Noa Eshed 25:47
So it wasn’t to sell the company it was to manage the company?

Chen 25:50
No it was to managea company. I didn’t know, you know, sometimes ignorance is bliss. When I moved to San Francisco, then I started learning a lot of things that Israel has done now. You know, we Israelis think that we know everything we know the best we building the best companies, we don’t need help. And it’s bullshit.

Noa Eshed 26:08
So what is the truth?

Chen 26:09
The truth is that we need help. We need to talk to other people. We need to understand how to build, build big companies. We building amazing companies, but we’re not building big companies. And it’s because we don’t want to ask for help. Or we don’t want to ask for an advice. Or we don’t use the right tools. Because we just don’t know, you know. I’ve been at the company, I’ve been at the company without CRM, marketing, automation, customer, customer and communication. And like, it’s crazy.

Noa Eshed 26:43
But it worked.

Chen 26:45
And to a certain level…

Noa Eshed 26:46
To a certain level. Right.

Chen 26:48
Exactly. So when I moved in 2015 and started meeting with other people, and I’m like, Oh, my God, I’m making 20 million. He was like, okay, I’m making 20 million in a month. It wasn’t. I’m not as great as I thought. I’m not that talented as I thought. I like, it changed my perspective, but…

Noa Eshed 26:48
It sounds very difficult.

Chen 27:10
Yeah, but challenging. Like how amazing it is that you sit with people that actually teach you and actually went through this once. I didn’t think that I need help. I didn’t think that I need to ask for help. I didn’t think that they’ve been through something similar to me. And to be CEO. It’s very lonely. Your employees like look up, like look up to you. But you’re alone. (Yeah), you are alone. And if you don’t have investors, and you don’t have advisors, and actively founders, you are alone. And people forget it, people are like CEO oh my god…

Noa Eshed 27:44
You should have all the answers.

Chen 27:46
Exactly. And like you need to show confidence and but you are alone. So people forget about it. So I think that I just didn’t do my, like it was to be the company, to do it better, to do it faster. That’s it. But after you sell it and then it’s like, okay, what do you do next? So I don’t know what I do next because because I don’t have a new dream.

Ronen 28:07
So how did you find the new dream?

Chen 28:08
It took me five months which is a lot but you know at first you don’t you don’t realize that you need to find your new dream. Because you say, okay, let’s do the next thing. But you don’t want, you don’t know that you what’s the next thing? So it took me time to realize that I just needed a new dream. And then I’ll know what to do. And I think that the answer for that is just met tons of people, met tons of people with different industries. Entrepreneur, big company…

Ronen 28:36
How?

Chen 28:36
Oh, San, San Francisco. I’m friendly press person, right? You just meet people, you go to meetups, you go to organised, different organization. I’m part of a lot of different organizations out there. And…

Noa Eshed 28:47
Was this intuitive? How did you know to do that?

Chen 28:51
Um, it just happened. It’s, it’s, it’s Silicon Valley. It just happens. When you’re there and then you’re introduced to one person and one person and you know, you never, and another thing that Israelis don’t realize, but I actually knew it because I lived there before. That nobody, nobody has to help me. Okay, you know, Israelis be…

Noa Eshed 29:14
Nobody owes you anything

Chen 29:14
Nobody owes me anything. Israelis, most of the times like – oh my god, you need to help me. Why? Because you’re my brother. No, I’m not.

Noa Eshed 29:23
Really?

Chen 29:23
Yes. Yes. You see tons of entrepreneurs…

Noa Eshed 29:27
Only on the basis that they’re also from Israel?

Chen 29:29
Yeah. Or because, because, it’s very annoying. But I kind of knew the American culture already. Right. I lived there before. So it wasn’t from scratch from me, which was a huge advantage. And you just start to help companies and then I started to advise some companies in mobile. I knew I didn’t want to do mobile anymore. But I knew mobile really well. So I advised for startups so it helped me a little bit to you know, to gain your trust again.

Noa Eshed 29:57
So you didn’t really take any time off.

Chen 30:00
No, I had to take time off because I waited for my green card. So I had to. My parents all the time say lucky. But so I had to take time off, a few months. But in those few months, I met tons of people I interviewed big companies, like to be chief something or VP there.

Noa Eshed 30:20
So you didn’t become a little insecure with all those difficult feelings of actually not knowing everything and not being the big shot that you felt that you were? This didn’t really hold you back sort of motivated you to be what you want to be?

Chen 30:33
Yes, but other things like demotivated me.

Noa Eshed 30:36
Like what?

Chen 30:37
This didn’t, didn’t bother me, because whenever I, whatever I’ll do, I’ll know. What bothered me is that I was so focused on myself, and on mobile industry, and on building a company without looking around and building my other networking.

Noa Eshed 30:59
In other industries?

Chen 31:00
In other industries. So I’m not going to do the same mistake. Now. That’s why all over the place now, even though I have assess company it’s amazing, but I’m building my own network, my personal network, and also in different industries, because it was tough. Because my network was mobile, and I didn’t want to do mobile anymore. And you know, it’s like, it’s like a very strict industry. And so if I wanted to start a new company, or be a GM, or be CEO of a different company, I can do it in a mobile space, but not in the mobile space. Nada. Didn’t have anything. Because I was so focused, I think I was really young. I was a young CEO. And that was one of my biggest mistakes.

Chen 31:00
Was it though, didn’t you have to be that way? Wasn’t there some certain level of focus had to be invested for that to succeed?

Chen 31:36
But why? But why? Because this is how Israelis think.

Noa Eshed 31:55
I’m sorry?

Chen 31:55
Because this is why Israelis think. I think that this is how we think here and this is how I thought, but this is not how Silicon Valley thinks.

Ronen 32:02
It’s also, once upon a time with different generation, there is expertise.

Chen 32:07
Correct.

Ronen 32:08
Maybe today…

Chen 32:10
Correct. Now, this is something that I tell everyone, I was like, go and speak, it was like, why should I stick with them? Because you will learn! You know, I didn’t even think that I need to speak with other people. Because it’s not from it’s not for me, right?

Noa Eshed 32:25
Because you know.

Chen 32:25
Right.

Ronen 32:26
So you found it now. So is it Similar Tech,

Chen 32:29
I joined? I joined founders that built the platform.

Noa Eshed 32:34
So how did that happe?

Chen 32:34
So I was introduced by a friend or offer is the CEO and co founder of Similar Web. And he said, we have a spin off company that the founders, they are very r&d, our very business. And I think it’s perfect. They have the idea, they have technology, now they need to build the business. And in those five, six months, I was in touch with them. You know, it’s like second marriage, you need to fall in love in your partners. So for us, they did the DD on me, I did the DD on them.

Noa Eshed 33:05
Did you fall in love with them, or with the product or both?

Chen 33:07
Everything. I had to fall in love of everything. And it’s tough. I was there. They were here. And I flew to Israel to meet with them.

Noa Eshed 33:16
Were they concerned that you’re over there?

Chen 33:18
No, I don’t think it’s a concern. I think it’s, I think it’s an advantage. But I don’t know, I we’re so, you know, it’s not that we’re best friends and now I’m going to have drinks with them. But we are the best partners. Because they’re, now we’re two, but we’re still in touch with the third. But they’re very good in what they’re doing. And I’m very good at what I’m doing. So we work really well together. And hopefully, next, next companies or whatever, we’ll be together.

Noa Eshed 33:47
Yeah?

Chen 33:48
Yeah.

Noa Eshed 33:48
So how can you were three now you are two?

Chen 33:51
Just because the third one wanted to work in a corporate?

Ronen 33:55
Not an entrepreneur?

Chen 33:56
Yeah.

Noa Eshed 33:56
Which is, that’s very different to you.

Chen 33:58
Very different, but I used to be like this, but I it’s like, I already had it. Two years. He didn’t. So maybe you need to have he needs to have it for a year to, two years. And then that’s it. You know, it’s out of his system.

Noa Eshed 34:11
Maybe also, it’s sometimes people find it difficult to handle the stress, that’s very inherent to startup life.

Chen 34:17
For sure.

Noa Eshed 34:18
It’s like a roller coaster.

Chen 34:19
For sure.

Ronen 34:21
Real Life superpowers doesn’t do the whole sponsorship thing. But we do like to holler out about awesome stuff. We think are cool, are great ideas. This week, we’re talking about something really specific. So the people who make shortcuts on keyboards. Awesome idea about the Ctrl Shift D so there’s really specific subconscious right guys, let’s say I have opened up a window, okay. And then by accidentally because of ADHD, you close that window, and you’re like, shit, where’s that window? How am I going to get that window back? So I obviously can go to my history and bring back that window. But awesome guide keyboard shortcut. Ctrl Shift T. And that window is BAM back on the screen. So awesome idea. I don’t know like, you know, it’s probably a guy named Brian, but it could be anybody. Great idea. And now I can get those windows back because I’m the ADHD guy who closes them.

Ronen 35:17
So the first company that you built was b2c, or b2b.

Chen 35:21
No, it’s also b2b. It’s like b2bc.

Ronen 35:23
Okay, and now it’s b2b?

Chen 35:25
And I wanted it’s something, I knew what I don’t want to do. In those five months. I knew that it only do mobile I know, I knew that I prefer to do SaaS. I wanted to work with one like billion companies like I wanted to do, you know, negotiate with Google, Facebook, Amazon, PayPal.

Ronen 35:49
And?

Chen 35:50
Of course, we’re working with everyone. But…

Noa Eshed 35:52
Of course woman.

Ronen 35:53
Of course.

Chen 35:54
No…

Ronen 35:55
That’s what I wanted to do so it should happen.

Noa Eshed 35:58
I said I wanted it didn’t I? Don’t offend me.

Ronen 36:01
It’s like five seconds I actually said that.

Chen 36:03
No, it took me more than I expected. It took me more time to…

Ronen 36:06
What the sales cycle?

Chen 36:07
No, to learn.

Ronen 36:09
Okay, (okay)

Chen 36:10
Yeah, to learn. So cycle, I knew that it will be. I know that it will be longer

Ronen 36:15
What is the sales cycle right now?

Chen 36:16
I think it certainly depends on the size of the company, but it’s one to three months. Startup to SMB, SMB to enterprise can be three to six. But you know, there are some like 9 and 12. Relatively to SaaS, it’s fine, I don’t think I can handle more than that. But it’s exactly the opposite and erratic. It’s exactly the opposite in mobile. You can sign 250k deal in a day…

Ronen 36:42
In what?

Chen 36:43
In mobile, right. But the margin is very low. In in SaaS, the margins are very high and sale cycle. So it’s very different. It’s very different. And I thought you know, oh my God, I know really well, mobile. I’ll know really well SaaS in like three months. So it was hard.

Chen 37:01
So what it did take, four?

Chen 37:02
So I think it took me six. I think I needed to go to a tons of meetings, like meetups, meetings, and read books. I actually read books.

Noa Eshed 37:16
Because that’s not something you typically do.

Ronen 37:17
Like what is what?

Chen 37:18
No, I read books, like cleaning, shares, that you know, things that I care about, but I don’t think you can learn your industry through books.

Ronen 37:26
So what kind of books then?

Chen 37:27
But I had, so I had to write, not like famous book. But for example, SDR. When you read about when you hear about SDR, not a lot of people knows that SDR exists. What SDR? Like what is an SDR I didn’t know anything. Didn’t know what is, inside sales, outside sales, bizdev, SDR.

Noa Eshed 37:47
Cold, hot.

Chen 37:48
I didn’t know anything. I really didn’t. So I had to go to a lot of meetups and talk to tons of people. And, and just taught myself. And I didn’t expect and I didn’t I didn’t think that I need to do it. I didn’t, like I didn’t think I needed to do it at first. But then I said, okay, if I want to sell this is what I need to do. Because I think that once I sell it means that I know my product. And once I sell my confidence goes up. And when you’re confidence goes up, you can build a company. And sometimes when you don’t sell and you have a lot of failure, like your confidence goes down. And one of the things that drives me up and I feel that I’m happy, it’s when my confidence is up. So those, this is the thing that this is how I thought about it. So I thought about it really you know realistic? Like, okay, I’m going to my confidence will be up if I sell, how am I going to sell I’m going to learn how I’m going to sell? How am I going to learn, I’m going to just learn. So that’s what I did.

Ronen 38:54
I love that way. I love that you took a situation right now and you went backwards on the situation.

Chen 39:00
Correct, I did reverse engineering.

Ronen 39:02
So actually, that’s one of the things I was taught in 21 when I had my first hero to work for. I want to stop on that for a second. So what you said is you had an end goal, and then you cut back to it. What’s the difference? This try to try to do this the oppositely. What’s the difference from saying okay, I have to get up and read a book between what’s my endgame and cutting it back?

Chen 39:24
So I think that I didn’t do it with my first company. And I only thought about short term. And I only thought about what I need to do now in order to succeed. And, and I think I just learned that sometimes you need to understand what you want. And to understand. Okay, if I want this what will cause me to be here. I was also in a tricky situation because it’s not that I built this company from scratch think about it. So I kind of need to learn it’s kind of easier to build the product from scratch. And it’s a little bit more challenging to come onboard and learn something. So that, so that was my situation, and now to keep up with the two years that they build the product, and now I need to learn it, I didn’t have another choice, you know. And also after leaving the company, and selling it and moving to a different company and, and to be an expert in mobile, and to you know, I was sitting with people, and I was like, I know mobile, and all of a sudden you’re selling but you don’t know SaaS, I had to know SaaS, so I had to like to break down like to take a paper, I actually did it and say – okay, how do I get to know SaaS? What do I need to do? So I think that this is just the situation that I was in.

Ronen 40:48
Very cool. And on the relocation side, like, what would your advice be on someone moving overseas right now?

Chen 40:55
So I’m average, on average, I meeting once, like one entrepreneur every two weeks, either here or there, advising them about relocation, because I was stupid enough not to ask people and make tons of mistake.

Ronen 41:13
Like? What kind?

Chen 41:14
Not to take Airbnb in my first month and rent an empty house and come to the house with two babies and empty house and order pizza in on like plastic plate and started crying and sending my husband to IKEA to buy at least beds for the kids. And on the way buy in Target towels and shampoo. Stupid things like that. That why didn’t I just take an Airbnb for one month, two months, three months and understand where do I want to live? And things like that. And this is one of the best advice that I give it to a lot of people and after that the tell they tell me

Noa Eshed 41:51
They thank you

Chen 41:51
They do say, oh my god, it’s the best advice.

Noa Eshed 41:54
And it sounds like you have super supportive family, right?

Chen 41:56
Yes. Yeah. Oh, so my husband is very supportive.

Ronen 42:01
What is he doing there?

Chen 42:02
He works at Payoneer.

Ronen 42:03
Okay

Chen 42:04
So almost two years already. So we kind of once a quarter, he’s coming to Israel, once a quarter I come to Israel once a year we come with the kids. He goes to, so we like have a lot of calendar event and about our schedule. But also my, his parents are helping, my parents are helping so

Noa Eshed 42:15
How can they help?

Chen 42:25
They can’t, like my parents, yeah, my mom comes for like two months, three months. It helps, it helps. We’re still alone there. But it helps.

Noa Eshed 42:36
And I have to ask the cliche question like, how do you handle everything that you’re doing? It’s such a race with two kids and one very much in the way.

Chen 42:46
So I think that to come to a realization that you cannot be perfect in all fields. I, okay, if you would have asked Chen two years ago, I would answer, oh, you know, I can do this and I can do that and blah, blah, blah, and come up with an answer. But because you asked me now, I think that I’m more mature to understand and realize that I cannot be the best mom, the best entrepreneur, the best wife. Because you cannot. And who says that you can? No, I don’t believe in that. But what I can do is to try. So I think that choosing to be an entrepreneur gave me the freedom to be a good mom, I think that I relatively am a good mom, I pick them up I know that from 5 to 8 or 4: 30 to 7:30 I’m with the kids. And after that I can open the computer and and work and I actually do that. I’m very mad that men cannot do that. i this is a different topic in Israel, what I see here in the society, but whatever. I think everyone can do it if they want to do it, by the way. And in terms of, in terms of business, I think efficiency. I think that it doesn’t matter how you don’t need to be upset if you don’t work your ass off or you don’t work like I don’t know, 10 hours a day. But small wins are good for confident. So I learned to think every day or every week or every month about my small wins. And then when I have small wins and I can reach them, okay, good I reach them. I can always do more, right, but still. And, and good wife, I, you need to ask my husband but it’s tough. We ,it’s challenging, but we’re trying to work it out. And but but it’s challenging. I don’t think it’s very easy. And I don’t think you can be perfect in everything.

Noa Eshed 44:55
I think maybe the management skills that you acquired maybe also early on having a mentor or understanding your management style enables you to have more freedom, because you can trust the teams that you manage.

Chen 45:09
I think so too. I think so too. And you know, I had new employees a couple of months ago, and he said, oh, my God, I still need to get you said that you’re not micromanaging me. So, but sometimes I trust but I give a chance. But if I get disappointed, it’s done.

Noa Eshed 45:26
Yeah?

Chen 45:27
Yeah.

Noa Eshed 45:27
Like what do you do?

Chen 45:27
Like Scorpio. You just, that’s it, I cannot trust again.

Noa Eshed 45:33
So you fire them or do they get a chance?

Chen 45:35
Yeah most probably… Yes, I always, I always give second chance. I learned that because I was about to fire someone in ClicksMob. And you know, you need to do Shimua – hearing here in Israel, and actually give her a chance and she was amazing. So it actually happened to me, everyone, really?! Yes, it happened to me, people can change. So because of this, I always give a second chance. I used not to

Noa Eshed 46:00
But do you hold a grudge a little and that your…

Chen 46:02
Yes, it takes time to earn my trust. Yes, definitely. But I can but it happened once. So maybe it can happen again but it only happened once.

Noa Eshed 46:10
Like it seems to me like maybe it takes time to genuinely win your trust. But you do give them the benefit of the doubt. And then the trust as a given until they break it.

Chen 46:20
For sure. Yeah.

Noa Eshed 46:22
I think that’s a important lesson.

Chen 46:25
Yeah, I think that it just worked for me at the, in the past. So until it will not work again.

Noa Eshed 46:33
I think it’s something that you learned from your mentor. Maybe back in the days.

Chen 46:38
Yeah. I think so, I didn’t even think about it, Matias.

Ronen 46:41
So you’re like, you’re a big feminist.

Chen 46:47
Yeah. Yes and no.

Ronen 46:49
What does that mean?

Chen 46:50
I have to say yes and no. Because I’m not going to

Ronen 46:52
Yes and no?

Chen 46:53
Yes, because I’m not. Oh, my God, talk to me like

Noa Eshed 46:57
Burning bras.

Chen 46:58
Exactly. Or, exactly. Or, you know, at the end of the day, and I understand that I’m the mother. And my husband is the father. And we used to live in San Francisco.

Ronen 47:09
And it upsets you that at 4:30 they can’t get the children out.

Chen 47:14
It upsets me that the the default is that the mom will pick up the kids. Or or, or if the kids are sick in school, the first call will be the mom. So yes, it upsets me. This what upsets me Oh, like, you know, why fathers think oh, so once a week, I’ll leave work early. Wait, what do you mean, you know, but we will think differently. So it took me some time. So you know, that’s why I said yes or no.

Ronen 47:47
Yeah, you said you said in Israel that upsets me, what was happening in San Francisco in that area?

Chen 47:52
I think that the work life balance is amazing in San Francisco.

Ronen 47:55
What do you mean? Why?

Chen 47:55
So, first of all, you you can leave early, you have Saturday, Sunday for the family, you you have paternity leave, my husband has like I think six to eight weeks paternity leave not instead of me, in addition to me. And it’s not based on California law, right? It’s not according to the law. It’s the perks that the companies provide. And here the society, you know, my friend gave birth and it’s not even in his mind to ask his boss to leave early, one day or two days. It’s like, it’s not the norma here.

Noa Eshed 48:32
It’s true.

Chen 48:33
It’s not the normal, it’s not

Noa Eshed 48:34
You know what? It’s true and I find it upsetting too

Chen 48:36
And it’s upsetting. And I’m not saying okay, it has to be equal. All this field 50:50. Give me a break. And my husband is an amazing dad. Seriously, he is amazing. But it’s not 50:50, even if I wanted to be 50:50, but it’s just not. It can be 55 you know. It could be 60:40. But it’s not 50:50.

Ronen 48:58
Why? What’s the what’s the difference? Like the big difference?

Chen 49:01
Oh, it’s not just the big difference

Noa Eshed 49:03
Mother Nature.

Chen 49:04
But it’s the Mother Nature. I think. It’s not because he doesn’t want to I don’t want. Maybe I don’t give it even you know, it, doesn’t it, I didn’t I don’t ask. Right. You know, it’s like it took me time to ask for help from a babysitter or cleaner. Why? Cuz I can do it all. Why? Right? Right. And men will ask for help. So it’s, it’s not because but, but in Silicon Valley, I think it’s, it’s different. It’s very hard to say, I’m like I am here what two weeks I think and oh my God it drives me nuts. It’s kind of annoying…

Noa Eshed 49:40
What the society?

Chen 49:40
Like yeah, it’s kind of annoying. I have to say that…

Ronen 49:43
In what sense though?

Chen 49:44
That they don’t live early to pick up the kids. Why?

Noa Eshed 49:50
I don’t think they feel they can?

Chen 49:52
Exactly. I don’t I think I don’t blame them. I blame their bosses or the society or thing. I don’t think I blame them, because they are afraid to ask. But what if? I don’t know it will be? Maybe we need to I don’t know. To ask for I don’t know, laws, I don’t know, something needs to change. Or maybe it’s too early. It was like this to 20-30 years ago in Silicon Valley, but it’s different. I, it’s very different.

Noa Eshed 50:21
Let’s hope for exponential progress there.

Ronen 50:22
Yeah, we’re also late bloomers sometimes in society.

Chen 50:25
But we also were only like, 70, you know?

Ronen 50:28
Yeah, we’re young.

Chen 50:30
So…

Ronen 50:31
Definitely true.

Noa Eshed 50:31
I’ve heard your team joke around with you, which I found amusing that you didn’t take much time off after you gave birth most times.

Chen 50:38
Yeah, but this is my decision. I don’t know if it’s good or not good. It’s not good for me.

Noa Eshed 50:42
How long did you take?

Chen 50:43
I didn’t, like a day after I worked. But the kid, the baby was with me until like three months, I think. He went to meetings with me, I interview with him and with her, so they.

Noa Eshed 50:57
Isn’t that incredible.

Ronen 50:59
Baby should be like, he knows mobile already.

Chen 51:03
Very good with numbers.

Noa Eshed 51:04
Amazing manager.

Chen 51:06
But I’m just saying that it was just wasn’t good for me. I was very upset. I was little worried. I was really worried that I’ll be upset after you know, after

Ronen 51:17
Was relevance part of your decision? Being scared not to be relevant.

Chen 51:21
Oh, no.

Ronen 51:22
No.

Noa Eshed 51:22
So what was it?

Chen 51:23
I don’t think so.

Noa Eshed 51:23
How did you not give yourself the time?

Chen 51:25
Because I was afraid that I cannot handle it to be home and to focus on motherhood. And then what what am I going to do and speak about what am I going to feed him and then sleep, it’s like. And OH MY GOD when he is stepping out to sleep? Really? I hate when people say, are you kidding me? Like, who does that? So for me, it wasn’t, like I understand when people need it. But for me, it’s not good. So now

Noa Eshed 51:53
That’s very aware. Although you’re ambivalent? Because you’re also saying maybe it wasn’t good for you. For you.

Chen 51:58
Yeah, it just it wasn’t good for me. You know.

Noa Eshed 52:00
It wasn’t it?

Chen 52:01
That’s what I’m saying that maybe now.

Noa Eshed 52:03
In retrospect.

Chen 52:04
Maybe? Maybe. I’m in San Francisco, I have less employees there. Most of my employees are in Israel. They very independent. It’s different. But again.

Noa Eshed 52:15
Maybe you’ve earned it.

Chen 52:16
Yeah, but again, I’ll do it like for a few days, a week.

Noa Eshed 52:19
I don’t think you’ll ever just disappear off the map for a while. It’s just not your nature.

Chen 52:22
And why not? Like I can be with my, you can be out with your Facebook and Instagram. I can be with my emails. Like I’m not. I don’t think that it’s very tough. In my opinion.

Noa Eshed 52:35
But it’s special and I do find them inspiring, so long, you know, because I’m looking at you. And it seems I think you’re unsure if it was good in the long run for yourself. But it seemed, you seemed fine and happy.

Chen 52:48
I’m fine, right? Because after like a month…

Ronen 52:50
That’s the right question.

Noa Eshed 52:52
By the way, how are the kids?

Chen 52:53
They’re amazing. And you know, after a month or two months, I flew to Barcelona. I think Barcelona was like MW. And everyone told me oh my god, why? Everything is good. They don’t even remember.

Noa Eshed 53:04
That’s annyoing I guess.

Chen 53:05
It’s so annoying. Everyone…

Noa Eshed 53:06
Just mind your own business.

Chen 53:07
It’s so annoying.

Ronen 53:08
Not everyone. I met you there, I didn’t ask you that.

Chen 53:10
Yeah, that’s true.

Noa Eshed 53:10
Did you know?

Chen 53:11
Yeah. Everyone knew everyone’s like, oh my gosh, just stay perfect…

Ronen 53:14
It’s was very big rumor.

Noa Eshed 53:16
Yeah? People being critical.

Chen 53:17
Yeah. She just gave birth two months ago.

Ronen 53:20
It’s something to talk about. It’s a it’s a not normal decision. So you know, it’s something to talk about. So the people who were not empathetic as parents there they were. They were?

Noa Eshed 53:31
Critical.

Ronen 53:32
No, they were saying that’s amazing. Great decision. Wow, she’s so passionate. And…

Chen 53:37
But nobody asked, someone that I knew that his wife gave birth a week before, and he was…

Noa Eshed 53:40
What are you doing here?

Chen 53:44
And he was there.

Noa Eshed 53:46
That is annoying.

Chen 53:47
Oh, my God!

Noa Eshed 53:48
That is annoying.

Chen 53:48
Oh my god, you know, so this is what I mean about this society.

Noa Eshed 53:51
That’s true.

Chen 53:52
So a week. Okay. Yeah. So…

Noa Eshed 53:58
You just do your own thing.

Chen 53:59
Exactly. I never judge. And, you know, I learned.

Noa Eshed 54:02
It’s so dangerous to judge.

Chen 54:03
I used to judge all the time before I moved to Brandeis.

Noa Eshed 54:06
Oh yeah?

Chen 54:06
Yes, before I I became a little bit American, I think. And I used to judge all the time. And then when I moved to Brandais.

Noa Eshed 54:14
You mean that the Americans judge?

Chen 54:15
No, that’s Israel is

Noa Eshed 54:17
Right. That’s what I thought. Okay.

Chen 54:18
Before I became a little bit American. So. So I used to judge judge a lot. And then when I moved there, and I just learn how to expect accept others. I think I stopped judging.

Ronen 54:31
So Chen, where do you see yourself in 10 years? What’s what’s, what are you?

Chen 54:36
Wow 10 years, I don’t know, in 10 years? I know in like, less than 10 years, but hopefully with more kids.

Ronen 54:44
Okay.

Noa Eshed 54:44
Yeah?

Chen 54:45
Yeah. And building and selling companies. I little bit broad, but building and selling companies.

Ronen 54:53
You gotta be in the same industry because I don’t think you…

Chen 54:56
Maybe.

Ronen 54:56
Maybe?

Chen 54:57
Maybe.

Ronen 54:57
Okay, you may have found your industry.

Chen 54:59
I think so. I think it’s going to be in the same industry.

Noa Eshed 55:02
But you’ll still make sure to always be connected in other industries, just, just in case.

Chen 55:08
Always, I don’t think I think I learned my mistake, first time, and I’m trying not to do it again.

Noa Eshed 55:16
Got it.

Ronen 55:18
So, first of all, thank you very much.

Chen 55:20
Thanks for inviting me.

Ronen 55:21
We really appreciate it. I’m gonna give a few notes here about like when you talked about because there’s a few interesting things, tell me if I’m wrong, but..

Chen 55:28
Okay.

Ronen 55:28
But what am I… first of all, this is not to say we learned but I think it’s one of the messages I’ve heard. Investment banking helps motherhood, which is

Chen 55:37
It’s very funny.

Ronen 55:38
So you mothers out there, if you really want to know how to be a mother, you have to be investment banker.

Noa Eshed 55:42
Everything will seem simple.

Ronen 55:45
And so one of the things is like networking. So you said focusing on networking as CEO, you think that networking, not only in your industry, but anything around, helps you think, helps you have more connections and keeps your options open?

Chen 55:58
I call it the personal network effect.

Ronen 56:01
personal network effect. Nice. Okay. So PNA.

Chen 56:05
I guess.

Ronen 56:06
Okay, so…

Noa Eshed 56:07
E, I would say.

Chen 56:07
E, yeah.

Ronen 56:08
E? Thanks. Affect… Okay, and be a person, which is really empowering you. So that, that’s the lesson of likeability, which actually helps you empower employees that they want to respect you and work for you. Right? Which is another lesson you give. Find a dream. So having an end goal, and cutting back to how to get that end goal.

Chen 56:29
Correct.

Ronen 56:29
I think this is a great idea. And small wins builds confidence, and confidence means success. So if you’re doing anything, you have to know enough to feel really confident in the room and you have more, better success rate.

Chen 56:43
You know, it’s like when, when we get dressed, and sometimes people think it’s ugly, but you’re confident enough that you look amazing this day. It’s the same thing,

Ronen 56:52
Right. Right. Fair enough. So that’s a great lesson. I’m thinking of going to be an investment banker to learn how to be a mother. And I’m definitely going to take that end game .

Noa Eshed 57:04
And ends up a feminist.

Ronen 57:07
And that’s it. So thank you very much. And we’ll see you in San Francisco.

Chen 57:11
Yeah.

Noa Eshed 57:12
Thank you, this is super inspiring.